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	<title>Comments on: Sharepoint 2007 from an interface developer&#8217;s view</title>
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	<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/</link>
	<description>You have found Friendly Bit, a web development blog. I focus on client side technologies like CSS, HTML and Javascript. You find my articles below and categories to the right.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 13:19:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Emil Stenström</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30679</link>
		<dc:creator>Emil Stenström</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 13:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30679</guid>
		<description>@Marcus: So what should I call it? "Portal" or "platform" is far to ambiguous to make sense to people... and the fact is, most people use it as a CMS of some kind.

About .NET controls. The problem is that virtually &lt;strong&gt;all&lt;/strong&gt; controls that come with Sharepoint are built with a mixed frontend and backend. You can build any controls you want (except if you want webparts, you have to mix them then), but we're not talking about just any system now, we're talking about Sharepoint.

About codeplex: Sure, you can download stuff from there and use them instead, but wasn't the reason you paid immense amounts of money for MOSS to not have to download stuff? The &lt;strong&gt;default Sharepoint&lt;/strong&gt; stuff needs to be much more customizable.

I've working in a project where we're pushed MOSS to the limits, making sure the customer are free to use everything that comes out of the box (all the things you mention). The problem is that the defaults are of such bad quality, that we often have to patch or hack them to make them usable. Or replace them fully by something from codeplex. That's not a good way to build stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Marcus: So what should I call it? &#8220;Portal&#8221; or &#8220;platform&#8221; is far to ambiguous to make sense to people&#8230; and the fact is, most people use it as a CMS of some kind.</p>
<p>About .NET controls. The problem is that virtually <strong>all</strong> controls that come with Sharepoint are built with a mixed frontend and backend. You can build any controls you want (except if you want webparts, you have to mix them then), but we&#8217;re not talking about just any system now, we&#8217;re talking about Sharepoint.</p>
<p>About codeplex: Sure, you can download stuff from there and use them instead, but wasn&#8217;t the reason you paid immense amounts of money for MOSS to not have to download stuff? The <strong>default Sharepoint</strong> stuff needs to be much more customizable.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve working in a project where we&#8217;re pushed MOSS to the limits, making sure the customer are free to use everything that comes out of the box (all the things you mention). The problem is that the defaults are of such bad quality, that we often have to patch or hack them to make them usable. Or replace them fully by something from codeplex. That&#8217;s not a good way to build stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Marcus</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30676</link>
		<dc:creator>Marcus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 21:49:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30676</guid>
		<description>Emil,
I've read through a few of your MOSS/WSS postings. With all due respect, I don't think you quite understand what SharePoint is. Calling SharePoint a CMS system is like calling Exchange (or Domino, if you prefer something non-MS) an SMTP server.
I have to agree with Ben on most of his remarks.
In additon, only a compiled .Net control will have a combination of logic and presentation, and only then, if the developer of the control made it that way.
.Net itself emphasises the seperation of logic and presentation. If what you're getting out of the box doesn't suit you, write your own or look on codeplex or any of the other million developer sites (and they're not "unsupported", as you state).
Bottom line is, building elaborate internet facing sites based on WSS or MOSS only makes sense if you intend to also leverage the underlying framework for functionality (authentication systems, integration with AD/CRM/Exchange/etc, collaboration functionality, personalization etc etc etc). 
Otherwise, that would be like (to use my example from above) installing an Exchange Server as a simple mail relay and - I agree with you there - way too much work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Emil,<br />
I&#8217;ve read through a few of your MOSS/WSS postings. With all due respect, I don&#8217;t think you quite understand what SharePoint is. Calling SharePoint a CMS system is like calling Exchange (or Domino, if you prefer something non-MS) an SMTP server.<br />
I have to agree with Ben on most of his remarks.<br />
In additon, only a compiled .Net control will have a combination of logic and presentation, and only then, if the developer of the control made it that way.<br />
.Net itself emphasises the seperation of logic and presentation. If what you&#8217;re getting out of the box doesn&#8217;t suit you, write your own or look on codeplex or any of the other million developer sites (and they&#8217;re not &#8220;unsupported&#8221;, as you state).<br />
Bottom line is, building elaborate internet facing sites based on WSS or MOSS only makes sense if you intend to also leverage the underlying framework for functionality (authentication systems, integration with AD/CRM/Exchange/etc, collaboration functionality, personalization etc etc etc).<br />
Otherwise, that would be like (to use my example from above) installing an Exchange Server as a simple mail relay and - I agree with you there - way too much work.</p>
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		<title>By: SharePoint noise &#171; Grumpy Wookie</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30563</link>
		<dc:creator>SharePoint noise &#171; Grumpy Wookie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 05:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30563</guid>
		<description>[...] Sharepoint 2007 from an interface developer’s view [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Sharepoint 2007 from an interface developer’s view [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Emil Stenström</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30474</link>
		<dc:creator>Emil Stenström</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30474</guid>
		<description>@Ben Robb: Isn't the purpose of a system like Sharepoint to help you? Sure, you can go through all the hassle you describe above just to get a decent site running, but picking &lt;strong&gt;another tool&lt;/strong&gt; is a much more effective way of doing the same thing. Really, you can't really think Sharepoint is a good way of developing websites?

1) No matter what size you have, it's still half the RAM and processing power. No other CMS requires that. Period.

2) That it's known and partly patched in a 3rd party addon does &lt;strong&gt;not&lt;/strong&gt; make it OK. MOSS adds accessibility problems that most other tools does not have.

3) Yes, you can hack around the controls that are there to save you time.

4) Yes, I know all about hedkandi, it's just as customized as the site I'm building. That you can add pretty images and custom CSS does not make it a good CMS (or other) tool. You can do that with any tool out there, anything else would be insane. MOSS requires you to hack more than any other one I've used.

5) Why do you need to download additional unsupported components to change things like blogs? Really, is that reasonable?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ben Robb: Isn&#8217;t the purpose of a system like Sharepoint to help you? Sure, you can go through all the hassle you describe above just to get a decent site running, but picking <strong>another tool</strong> is a much more effective way of doing the same thing. Really, you can&#8217;t really think Sharepoint is a good way of developing websites?</p>
<p>1) No matter what size you have, it&#8217;s still half the RAM and processing power. No other CMS requires that. Period.</p>
<p>2) That it&#8217;s known and partly patched in a 3rd party addon does <strong>not</strong> make it OK. MOSS adds accessibility problems that most other tools does not have.</p>
<p>3) Yes, you can hack around the controls that are there to save you time.</p>
<p>4) Yes, I know all about hedkandi, it&#8217;s just as customized as the site I&#8217;m building. That you can add pretty images and custom CSS does not make it a good CMS (or other) tool. You can do that with any tool out there, anything else would be insane. MOSS requires you to hack more than any other one I&#8217;ve used.</p>
<p>5) Why do you need to download additional unsupported components to change things like blogs? Really, is that reasonable?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Robb</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30470</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Robb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30470</guid>
		<description>Hi - some of your points are valid, but I would say your conclusions are flawed. I think you need to have faith and work through the examples of how to get "better" html output from SharePoint. For *public facing websites*, you don't really need the majority of SharePoint controls, and you can quite easily remove core.js and core.css from your page via an HTTP handler for anonymous users (this isn't officially supported, but since it is something than can easily be switched back off, you can quickly get back to a supported state). 

Not going to go through your points one by one, but a few things occured to me:

1) VPC size. I don't know what you've been doing to your images, but my dev vpcs are all about 8GB in size. I'd look at optimising your vpc builds...

2) Accessibility. This is a known issue, which the Accessibility Kit for SharePoint is fixing in part. For public facing webs, you have more flexibility, but the editing functionality is always going to be a problem from an accessibility point of view (which is not limited to MOSS, btw).

3) Control adapters can help with OOTB controls such as the menu / nav controls. See the ASP.NET CSS Control Adapters for more info.

4) You can brand SP sites, see for example http://www.hedkandi.com for a more "design" focused example.

5) Branding blogs and application pages - see the "Community Kit for SharePoint" and "SuperBranding", both on CodePlex.com for examples of how to do this easily.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi - some of your points are valid, but I would say your conclusions are flawed. I think you need to have faith and work through the examples of how to get &#8220;better&#8221; html output from SharePoint. For *public facing websites*, you don&#8217;t really need the majority of SharePoint controls, and you can quite easily remove core.js and core.css from your page via an HTTP handler for anonymous users (this isn&#8217;t officially supported, but since it is something than can easily be switched back off, you can quickly get back to a supported state). </p>
<p>Not going to go through your points one by one, but a few things occured to me:</p>
<p>1) VPC size. I don&#8217;t know what you&#8217;ve been doing to your images, but my dev vpcs are all about 8GB in size. I&#8217;d look at optimising your vpc builds&#8230;</p>
<p>2) Accessibility. This is a known issue, which the Accessibility Kit for SharePoint is fixing in part. For public facing webs, you have more flexibility, but the editing functionality is always going to be a problem from an accessibility point of view (which is not limited to MOSS, btw).</p>
<p>3) Control adapters can help with OOTB controls such as the menu / nav controls. See the ASP.NET CSS Control Adapters for more info.</p>
<p>4) You can brand SP sites, see for example <a href="http://www.hedkandi.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.hedkandi.com</a> for a more &#8220;design&#8221; focused example.</p>
<p>5) Branding blogs and application pages - see the &#8220;Community Kit for SharePoint&#8221; and &#8220;SuperBranding&#8221;, both on CodePlex.com for examples of how to do this easily.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Fraser</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30418</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Fraser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 15:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30418</guid>
		<description>Very informative article. And, Yes - Everything you wrote is true. 

Though, you can &lt;em&gt;skin&lt;/em&gt; the admin interface with some branding elements and colors.

CSS Specificity works flawlessly provided one uses &lt;code&gt;body id =""&lt;/code&gt;. Specificity also allows one to overwrite in-line styles (of which MOSS has an incredible amount) by using !important.

As to your comment about SharePoint lack of blogs with detailed help: you can find all sorts of programming help but nearly all of the articles are written by persons that do not seem to have heard about Web Standards. (Heather Solomon being the exception.) And, most of the fixes are ASP.NET 2 complicated.

From the amount of new articles on Web Standards sites (like yours), it seems that MOSS instead of IE6/7/8 has become the new poster child for Web Standards education.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very informative article. And, Yes - Everything you wrote is true. </p>
<p>Though, you can <em>skin</em> the admin interface with some branding elements and colors.</p>
<p>CSS Specificity works flawlessly provided one uses <code>body id =""</code>. Specificity also allows one to overwrite in-line styles (of which MOSS has an incredible amount) by using !important.</p>
<p>As to your comment about SharePoint lack of blogs with detailed help: you can find all sorts of programming help but nearly all of the articles are written by persons that do not seem to have heard about Web Standards. (Heather Solomon being the exception.) And, most of the fixes are ASP.NET 2 complicated.</p>
<p>From the amount of new articles on Web Standards sites (like yours), it seems that MOSS instead of IE6/7/8 has become the new poster child for Web Standards education.</p>
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		<title>By: MOSS should be spelt MOCKERY - Robert&#8217;s talk - Web development and Internet trends</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30369</link>
		<dc:creator>MOSS should be spelt MOCKERY - Robert&#8217;s talk - Web development and Internet trends</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:01:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30369</guid>
		<description>[...] Sharepoint 2007 from an interface developer’s view [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Sharepoint 2007 from an interface developer’s view [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Emil Stenström</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30253</link>
		<dc:creator>Emil Stenström</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 07:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30253</guid>
		<description>@Anna: It's great to hear that authorities in Sweden take time to do that kind of tests, and it's of course sad that they pick Sharepoint for their website. You didn't test the publishing of things did you? I suspect any testing on the admin interface would fail horribly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Anna: It&#8217;s great to hear that authorities in Sweden take time to do that kind of tests, and it&#8217;s of course sad that they pick Sharepoint for their website. You didn&#8217;t test the publishing of things did you? I suspect any testing on the admin interface would fail horribly.</p>
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		<title>By: Anna</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30251</link>
		<dc:creator>Anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Feb 2008 14:11:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30251</guid>
		<description>Thank's for a good article! Some months ago we built a public Sharepoint web site for a Swedish authority that had special demands on accessability (Verva's guidelines). We also performed a usability test with visually handicapped persons. We experienced that especially the forms were a big issue since they are using a lot of JS. Web forms can otherwise, with high accessability, be very helpful for handicapped persons, but not with MOSS. 

If you decide to use MOSS, at least avoid forms! You will get a lot of problems with adapting them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank&#8217;s for a good article! Some months ago we built a public Sharepoint web site for a Swedish authority that had special demands on accessability (Verva&#8217;s guidelines). We also performed a usability test with visually handicapped persons. We experienced that especially the forms were a big issue since they are using a lot of JS. Web forms can otherwise, with high accessability, be very helpful for handicapped persons, but not with MOSS. </p>
<p>If you decide to use MOSS, at least avoid forms! You will get a lot of problems with adapting them.</p>
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		<title>By: Donal</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30219</link>
		<dc:creator>Donal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:41:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30219</guid>
		<description>Thank you.  You have hit on all the major issues i loathe about SharePoint. I am hugely frustrated by master pages in particular.  Talk about taking a great feature and bastardizing it to make it actually less useful.
I hope the SharePoint product team take note of this article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you.  You have hit on all the major issues i loathe about SharePoint. I am hugely frustrated by master pages in particular.  Talk about taking a great feature and bastardizing it to make it actually less useful.<br />
I hope the SharePoint product team take note of this article.</p>
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		<title>By: Os 5 Problemas do Sharepoint 2007 para Desenvolvedores &#187; RuanWeb</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30200</link>
		<dc:creator>Os 5 Problemas do Sharepoint 2007 para Desenvolvedores &#187; RuanWeb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30200</guid>
		<description>[...] o seu cliente, no site do projeto existe um Tópico comparativo entre as duas soluções.Fonte:Sharepoint 2007 from an interface developer’s view - InglêsEmil [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] o seu cliente, no site do projeto existe um Tópico comparativo entre as duas soluções.Fonte:Sharepoint 2007 from an interface developer’s view - InglêsEmil [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Hamilton &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Feeling the Pain</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30183</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Hamilton &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Feeling the Pain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30183</guid>
		<description>[...] Stenström recently wrote about his experiences with Microsoft Sharepoint 2007 (MOSS) entitled, Sharepoint 2007 from an interface developer’s view. This is a task that I am currently undertaking at work, and I couldn&#8217;t agree more with his [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Stenström recently wrote about his experiences with Microsoft Sharepoint 2007 (MOSS) entitled, Sharepoint 2007 from an interface developer’s view. This is a task that I am currently undertaking at work, and I couldn&#8217;t agree more with his [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Emil Stenström</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30178</link>
		<dc:creator>Emil Stenström</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30178</guid>
		<description>@Jens Wedin: I fully agree that even intranets should be accessible. Doing accessible sites in Sharepoint is very hard though, there's some point when you work so much against the product that you are writing your own CMS. As with all things, it has to be a balance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jens Wedin: I fully agree that even intranets should be accessible. Doing accessible sites in Sharepoint is very hard though, there&#8217;s some point when you work so much against the product that you are writing your own CMS. As with all things, it has to be a balance.</p>
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		<title>By: Jens Wedin</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30176</link>
		<dc:creator>Jens Wedin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30176</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the insight in MOSS. 

I would like to say that Intranets should also be accessible, not only public websites. There is of course people with accessibility problems using Intranets as there is people using public websites.

Browser support is also important, you never know when the IT department decides to switch and instead of using IE start using OP or FF. That happened on IBM when they tried to go from IE to FF. Because so many Intranet applications where built for IE they could not make a big shift.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the insight in MOSS. </p>
<p>I would like to say that Intranets should also be accessible, not only public websites. There is of course people with accessibility problems using Intranets as there is people using public websites.</p>
<p>Browser support is also important, you never know when the IT department decides to switch and instead of using IE start using OP or FF. That happened on IBM when they tried to go from IE to FF. Because so many Intranet applications where built for IE they could not make a big shift.</p>
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		<title>By: Emil Stenström</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30174</link>
		<dc:creator>Emil Stenström</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:18:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/css/sharepoint-2007-from-an-interface-developers-view/#comment-30174</guid>
		<description>@Andreas: It's going forward, but I'm not done. I implemented the design I showed you and tested it with my own articles. It was unreadable... So I need to play around with the colors some more. I'll keep you posted with any progress.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Andreas: It&#8217;s going forward, but I&#8217;m not done. I implemented the design I showed you and tested it with my own articles. It was unreadable&#8230; So I need to play around with the colors some more. I&#8217;ll keep you posted with any progress.</p>
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