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	<title>Comments on: Flash-only vs. AJAX sites</title>
	<atom:link href="http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/</link>
	<description>You have found Friendly Bit, a web development blog. I focus on client side technologies like CSS, HTML and Javascript. You find my articles below and categories to the right.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2008 09:33:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Emil Stenström</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-30550</link>
		<dc:creator>Emil Stenström</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 06:54:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-30550</guid>
		<description>@Sasha: Thanks for your comment. I see what you mean with RIAs not containing any content, and I agree that some applications are like that. The thing is that people use Flash for all sorts of things, including publishing of content. That's the kind of Flash use I'm against, not embedding sound or video somewhere. Agreed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Sasha: Thanks for your comment. I see what you mean with RIAs not containing any content, and I agree that some applications are like that. The thing is that people use Flash for all sorts of things, including publishing of content. That&#8217;s the kind of Flash use I&#8217;m against, not embedding sound or video somewhere. Agreed?</p>
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		<title>By: Sasha</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-30549</link>
		<dc:creator>Sasha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:15:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-30549</guid>
		<description>No offense, but this article is biased towards Flash. Flash is great technology, it's just often misused. I agree that for standard websites, Flash is a no-no; however, for rich internet applications, Flash and Flex beat JavaScript any day. There's a reason web applications like Buzzword (http://www.buzzword.com/) use Flash/Flex and not JavaScript: it's just more effective for the job. All your negative comments toward Flash are basically nill when talking about RIAs.

Accessibility: When was the last time you saw a blind guy editing a photo on Picnik?

SEO: There isn't really any content to search on a RIA.

Ease of content change: This isn't an issue because there is no content. And I'd argue that making changes to an application are easier with Flex (Flash is a bit iffy).

Also, like some have said, Flash is clearly the only effective way to put video, sound, and other rich media on your website. So I believe you can't compare Flash and Ajax, they are two completely different technologies that do two completely different things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No offense, but this article is biased towards Flash. Flash is great technology, it&#8217;s just often misused. I agree that for standard websites, Flash is a no-no; however, for rich internet applications, Flash and Flex beat JavaScript any day. There&#8217;s a reason web applications like Buzzword (http://www.buzzword.com/) use Flash/Flex and not JavaScript: it&#8217;s just more effective for the job. All your negative comments toward Flash are basically nill when talking about RIAs.</p>
<p>Accessibility: When was the last time you saw a blind guy editing a photo on Picnik?</p>
<p>SEO: There isn&#8217;t really any content to search on a RIA.</p>
<p>Ease of content change: This isn&#8217;t an issue because there is no content. And I&#8217;d argue that making changes to an application are easier with Flex (Flash is a bit iffy).</p>
<p>Also, like some have said, Flash is clearly the only effective way to put video, sound, and other rich media on your website. So I believe you can&#8217;t compare Flash and Ajax, they are two completely different technologies that do two completely different things.</p>
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		<title>By: matt</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-28537</link>
		<dc:creator>matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-28537</guid>
		<description>Some good points, some not so good points.

comment #4 by Ryan could sum up this article. It all depends on the developer responsible for the application. 

If you break it down, the root goals to any web application &lt;em&gt;should&lt;/em&gt; be accessibility to all users. That being said, it brings us back to our dilemma, do you have the right developer for the job at hand. After all we are merely discussing an application, in this case Flash. The application is only as strong as the developer behind it. The same can be said for any other programs or languages.

In conclusion they both have strengths and weaknesses when put to the same test. Bottom line, a flash-only and an AJAX only site wont fair too well on a standard cell phone browser.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some good points, some not so good points.</p>
<p>comment #4 by Ryan could sum up this article. It all depends on the developer responsible for the application. </p>
<p>If you break it down, the root goals to any web application <em>should</em> be accessibility to all users. That being said, it brings us back to our dilemma, do you have the right developer for the job at hand. After all we are merely discussing an application, in this case Flash. The application is only as strong as the developer behind it. The same can be said for any other programs or languages.</p>
<p>In conclusion they both have strengths and weaknesses when put to the same test. Bottom line, a flash-only and an AJAX only site wont fair too well on a standard cell phone browser.</p>
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		<title>By: Seb</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-26763</link>
		<dc:creator>Seb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2007 17:21:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-26763</guid>
		<description>Javascript with DHTML is just as effective as Flash. Never understood why Flash has done so well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Javascript with DHTML is just as effective as Flash. Never understood why Flash has done so well.</p>
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		<title>By: Emil Stenström</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-24956</link>
		<dc:creator>Emil Stenström</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 12:12:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-24956</guid>
		<description>@Demetrius McClain: Thanks for you comment. You're of course right that the article is biased, and I could probably have mentioned video and sound more clearly if I wanted to promote flash. Now there's Silverlight and JavaFX too, and why not the old and sturdy Java applets? The article is biased, but it's biased because I don't think flash/silverlight/javafx is the right future of the web. We need cross-browser/cross-OS systems that are open to everyone, and CSS/HTML/JS delivers just that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Demetrius McClain: Thanks for you comment. You&#8217;re of course right that the article is biased, and I could probably have mentioned video and sound more clearly if I wanted to promote flash. Now there&#8217;s Silverlight and JavaFX too, and why not the old and sturdy Java applets? The article is biased, but it&#8217;s biased because I don&#8217;t think flash/silverlight/javafx is the right future of the web. We need cross-browser/cross-OS systems that are open to everyone, and CSS/HTML/JS delivers just that.</p>
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		<title>By: Demetrius McClain</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-24943</link>
		<dc:creator>Demetrius McClain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jun 2007 05:12:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-24943</guid>
		<description>Yes, my website is 100% flash designed.  But that's not why I am commenting. I am learning web standards.  I agree with all the articles that I have read about web standards.  After reading several articles on JavaScript, PHP, CSS,XML, XHTML ect... (I've read a lot in one day)I am not as intimidated by learning the right way to design web sites.  However, I feel that your article on "Flash vs AJAX was bias.  True there are some advantages of Ajax over Flash, especially, in the area of SEO and accessibility.  But Flash has advantages over AJAX as well.  Flash can deliver video without the problem of codex, a larger variety of text (regardless if the user has the text on their computer) can be used with flash, sound and a few more that I can't think of right now.  Your article didn't mention these things.  It was as if someone was bending your arm to mention that flash is better at graphic effects.  I say that because right after you gave flash props, you turned right around and made AJAX seem not as lacking by mentioning the advances of graphics through CSS.  It is your article and therefore you can make it seem all lop sided if you'd like, but as a flash user, i'd like to point out it is a better application than you give it credit. Flash still has a large following.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, my website is 100% flash designed.  But that&#8217;s not why I am commenting. I am learning web standards.  I agree with all the articles that I have read about web standards.  After reading several articles on JavaScript, PHP, CSS,XML, XHTML ect&#8230; (I&#8217;ve read a lot in one day)I am not as intimidated by learning the right way to design web sites.  However, I feel that your article on &#8220;Flash vs AJAX was bias.  True there are some advantages of Ajax over Flash, especially, in the area of SEO and accessibility.  But Flash has advantages over AJAX as well.  Flash can deliver video without the problem of codex, a larger variety of text (regardless if the user has the text on their computer) can be used with flash, sound and a few more that I can&#8217;t think of right now.  Your article didn&#8217;t mention these things.  It was as if someone was bending your arm to mention that flash is better at graphic effects.  I say that because right after you gave flash props, you turned right around and made AJAX seem not as lacking by mentioning the advances of graphics through CSS.  It is your article and therefore you can make it seem all lop sided if you&#8217;d like, but as a flash user, i&#8217;d like to point out it is a better application than you give it credit. Flash still has a large following.</p>
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		<title>By: Sumit</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-23124</link>
		<dc:creator>Sumit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 10:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-23124</guid>
		<description>I think flash and ajax both have different audiences. Goowy couldnt have been possible without flash...

Also visit www.sukip.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think flash and ajax both have different audiences. Goowy couldnt have been possible without flash&#8230;</p>
<p>Also visit <a href="http://www.sukip.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.sukip.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Pratik</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-21125</link>
		<dc:creator>Pratik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Feb 2007 23:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-21125</guid>
		<description>I agree with what you said in this article. I don't like flash because in the end you are still developing on a closed platform no matter if your tools are developing with are open source or not. Also, it's kind of slow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with what you said in this article. I don&#8217;t like flash because in the end you are still developing on a closed platform no matter if your tools are developing with are open source or not. Also, it&#8217;s kind of slow.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Nicol</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-20495</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Nicol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-20495</guid>
		<description>Admittedly I haven't read every comment (obviously you touched a nerve!), so apologies if I repeat statements that have already been made.

I worked many years as a full time Flash developer, and as has been mentioned, we would have our CMS output XML files, from which Flash would extract most of the site's content. Also worth noting is Flash remoting - the ability to communicate directly with the server via PHP etc. 

Most Flash developers these days separate out a lot of their actionscript into external classes - plain text files that can be edited in any text editor. So it's not strictly true that the Flash authoring tool is required to edit a Flash site.

I agree with your observation that full flash sites usually exist to support a product launch. They are commonly about marketing, and have a short life span. I have observed that of all the sites I visit with any regularity, not one of them is a Flash site. And I am a flash developer! One exception to the rule would be image intensive sites - I'm thinking specifically of portfolio sites for photographers and graphic designers, which are commonly built in Flash.

With the accessibility thing: most Flash developers couldn't care less. Seriously, they don't care.

With SEO, I agree Flash is woeful. Flash developers have to bend over backwards to try and expose their site content to search engines using all sorts of cunning tricks. If your content is stored in external XML files, you can parse the XML server-side and present it as HTML to search engines (that's what I do).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Admittedly I haven&#8217;t read every comment (obviously you touched a nerve!), so apologies if I repeat statements that have already been made.</p>
<p>I worked many years as a full time Flash developer, and as has been mentioned, we would have our CMS output XML files, from which Flash would extract most of the site&#8217;s content. Also worth noting is Flash remoting - the ability to communicate directly with the server via PHP etc. </p>
<p>Most Flash developers these days separate out a lot of their actionscript into external classes - plain text files that can be edited in any text editor. So it&#8217;s not strictly true that the Flash authoring tool is required to edit a Flash site.</p>
<p>I agree with your observation that full flash sites usually exist to support a product launch. They are commonly about marketing, and have a short life span. I have observed that of all the sites I visit with any regularity, not one of them is a Flash site. And I am a flash developer! One exception to the rule would be image intensive sites - I&#8217;m thinking specifically of portfolio sites for photographers and graphic designers, which are commonly built in Flash.</p>
<p>With the accessibility thing: most Flash developers couldn&#8217;t care less. Seriously, they don&#8217;t care.</p>
<p>With SEO, I agree Flash is woeful. Flash developers have to bend over backwards to try and expose their site content to search engines using all sorts of cunning tricks. If your content is stored in external XML files, you can parse the XML server-side and present it as HTML to search engines (that&#8217;s what I do).</p>
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		<title>By: Emil Stenström</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-20389</link>
		<dc:creator>Emil Stenström</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-20389</guid>
		<description>@Calophi: Ahh, thanks .)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Calophi: Ahh, thanks .)</p>
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		<title>By: Calophi</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-20254</link>
		<dc:creator>Calophi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 15:04:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-20254</guid>
		<description>I'm pretty sure RIA is Rich Internet Application. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure RIA is Rich Internet Application. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Emil Stenström</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-18283</link>
		<dc:creator>Emil Stenström</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Feb 2007 23:09:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-18283</guid>
		<description>@To all flashers that answered above: I really appreciate your comments and I've learned a lot from them. I think the fundamental difference is that I want accessibility *and* multimedia combined, not just one of them. 

@Shahrier: What's a RIA?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@To all flashers that answered above: I really appreciate your comments and I&#8217;ve learned a lot from them. I think the fundamental difference is that I want accessibility *and* multimedia combined, not just one of them. </p>
<p>@Shahrier: What&#8217;s a RIA?</p>
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		<title>By: Shahrier</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-18216</link>
		<dc:creator>Shahrier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:34:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-18216</guid>
		<description>Couldn't agree more with what you mentioned. The thing that bothers me most right now with these RIAs, is that they break the browser paradigm. Granted AJAX does it too to some extent, but you at least get to copy links, text etc. It takes a whole lot of extra effort to get these functionalities up and running on RIAs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Couldn&#8217;t agree more with what you mentioned. The thing that bothers me most right now with these RIAs, is that they break the browser paradigm. Granted AJAX does it too to some extent, but you at least get to copy links, text etc. It takes a whole lot of extra effort to get these functionalities up and running on RIAs.</p>
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		<title>By: Shanx</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-17918</link>
		<dc:creator>Shanx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-17918</guid>
		<description>Flash 9, or Flex, has many good uses. I wouldn't put Flex on consumer sites unless there was a specific app that benefited from the functionality. But for a lot of applications Flex is superb. You can also make it a standalone desktop application. 

AJAX, for all its present day de rigeur glory, isn't exactly a rosy thing to maintain either. For a simple 'behavior' I have to import an entire protocol.js, just because I don't know precisely where the functionality is coming from. The page size is big. And everything is useless if JS doesn't work. It's a lot more difficult to break the security glassbox of Flex. It's a cinch to do it with JS in the wrong hands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Flash 9, or Flex, has many good uses. I wouldn&#8217;t put Flex on consumer sites unless there was a specific app that benefited from the functionality. But for a lot of applications Flex is superb. You can also make it a standalone desktop application. </p>
<p>AJAX, for all its present day de rigeur glory, isn&#8217;t exactly a rosy thing to maintain either. For a simple &#8216;behavior&#8217; I have to import an entire protocol.js, just because I don&#8217;t know precisely where the functionality is coming from. The page size is big. And everything is useless if JS doesn&#8217;t work. It&#8217;s a lot more difficult to break the security glassbox of Flex. It&#8217;s a cinch to do it with JS in the wrong hands.</p>
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		<title>By: Emile Swain</title>
		<link>http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-16589</link>
		<dc:creator>Emile Swain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 17:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlybit.com/js/flash-only-vs-ajax-sites/#comment-16589</guid>
		<description>In answer as to why all these flash sites exist seemingly for no reason, its simply about a fuller experience through audio and visual presentation and user interaction. It's all very subjective whether you like the result or not, hence you'll always have these arguments about Flash V Ajax etc etc. IMOH its all about solving the problem and meeting the objectives using the correct technology for the right job. All these emerging technologies have a place and you'll find that they blend into each other. To me its all much of a muchnes.

Your argument "Flash files are hard to update" because you need a special program is mildly amusing and hardly a reason as to why not to use it. As for it being hard to update, that really depends on how complicated it is to begin with. It can be as hard as coding in COBAL or editing a css file. 

As for dynamic update of content, your argument is totally flawed. As a flash developer working with our technology team we haven't had any problems integrating flash into the CMS's of various clients. The flash just loads in a snipet of xml, or we consume a webservice or ultimately have information passed in through the object/embed tags. It isn't rocket science and certainly not a strong argument for using Ajax.

As for Flash not being hip, again very much in the eye of the beholder.

I love Flickr (ajax site) and wouldn't want it made in flash, at the same time i like www.nike.com and of course www.coca-cola.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In answer as to why all these flash sites exist seemingly for no reason, its simply about a fuller experience through audio and visual presentation and user interaction. It&#8217;s all very subjective whether you like the result or not, hence you&#8217;ll always have these arguments about Flash V Ajax etc etc. IMOH its all about solving the problem and meeting the objectives using the correct technology for the right job. All these emerging technologies have a place and you&#8217;ll find that they blend into each other. To me its all much of a muchnes.</p>
<p>Your argument &#8220;Flash files are hard to update&#8221; because you need a special program is mildly amusing and hardly a reason as to why not to use it. As for it being hard to update, that really depends on how complicated it is to begin with. It can be as hard as coding in COBAL or editing a css file. </p>
<p>As for dynamic update of content, your argument is totally flawed. As a flash developer working with our technology team we haven&#8217;t had any problems integrating flash into the CMS&#8217;s of various clients. The flash just loads in a snipet of xml, or we consume a webservice or ultimately have information passed in through the object/embed tags. It isn&#8217;t rocket science and certainly not a strong argument for using Ajax.</p>
<p>As for Flash not being hip, again very much in the eye of the beholder.</p>
<p>I love Flickr (ajax site) and wouldn&#8217;t want it made in flash, at the same time i like <a href="http://www.nike.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.nike.com</a> and of course <a href="http://www.coca-cola.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.coca-cola.com</a></p>
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